Lyric and tab sites look outÖ

[perfect circle]

I can't believe the narrow and greedy minds:

http://www.betanews.com/article/Music_Industry_to_Attack_Lyric_Tab_Sites/1134421643

[kiwicolin]

Too bad that big business is against the free sharing of knowledge

[perfect circle]

Next thing you know they will be set up in bars looking out for cover tunes.

[kiwicolin]

Your telling me

[perfect circle]

I don't believe that a lot of the artists support this crap. There is a link on the Foo Fighters web site that leads to a tab site with all of their music on it. As a musician you create music to share it, not to burden the listener with a slew of rules to follow after they have purchased it.

[mkeefe]

@perfect,

Good point indeed!

Matt

[cfire]

Originally posted by perfect circle
Next thing you know they will be set up in bars looking out for cover tunes.

They've been doing that for years! I used to own a bar and had BMG and ASCAP lawyers threaten to sue me many times for bands that played cover tunes. I'm surprised they never pressed charges or sued me when I tossed them out the door. :lol

[kiwicolin]

lol @ Frank

[fotodog]

Originally posted by kiwicolin
lol @ Frank

ditto!

This scares the crap outta me.

Yet, they don't go after the rappers/hiphopsters for sampling identifiable beats on songs?? Hmmm?? double standard here??

[kiwicolin]

I wondered about that one Photodog. Its common in hip hip to "karaoke" a song. You hear the entire track with a few words changed or some rapping added

[perfect circle]

You could only hope to market a product people want to duplicate (I am speaking of covering songs), talk about and help you promote. There are loses to be suffered in every market in some shape or form, but this is like disconnecting your kitchen sink because of a dripping faucet. It makes perfect sense to stop this if someone were selling the lyrics and tabs, but when it is for the sake of enjoyment this is too much. It is really enough to make me question my next music purchase. I love used cd shops, I suppose they are next…


[Edited on 13-12-2005 by perfect circle]

[kiwicolin]

Yes, I like to look up tabs sometimes just to jam around. Does that mean if I am listening to a song and start playing it on my guitar that I'm breaking the law? Next they will be snooping around music schools and under windows to catch people playing the songs.

[leaforte]

What a load! If someone loved one of my songs, and wanted to know the words so they could entertain around a campfire next friday,with their Washburn acoustic, and everyone felt the groove, looked at the sky, drank some beer, smoked some smoke, (or not), and felt the music, well, cool. I would be honoured, thats WHY I wrote the song....I wouldn't be about sueing someones arse for wanting to share what I put into creating. Indie rules! ( o )===::: Leaforte

[night0wl]

There has been plenty of times I have played certain songs in clubs and pubs where someone has asked "who originally sung that?", saying they haven't heard the song before then expressing interest in buying the single or album. If you ask me I think cover bands/artists do the industry a favour by promoting songs!

[Phil_The_Rodent]

But it's really for the bands, not the fans, to decide what happens to their music. it is theirs, after all.

Personally, I would support people learning my music, but I also respect if other artists don't want that. It is their children after all. Their labours.

This thread does remind me of seeing something though... I think it was Lana Lane's site where she had clips for download with the disclaimer that by downloading them you agree that you will not enjoy them, or something to that effect... :lol They've changed it since to say the samples are for informational purposes only.

[fotodog]

The music is the property of the band/record company. I agree.

But it's not like someone is out there selling these sheets making money off of it, except for the ad money on the site. Then it's the responsibility of the website owner to share the revenue with the band/record company.

Guitar mags have been printing tabs for years, will this practice stop as well or will it need to be redefined??

[perfect circle]

No matter how you look at it, it is a sad state of affairs. The tab sites are like an extended version of teaching your friend how to play a song. What if the next musical prodigy learned all his guitar licks and got all his song lyrics from these websites, would these people refuse his music based on principle? Somehow I doubt it.

[Phil_The_Rodent]

Music and tab did exist before the internet though. I don't think limiting the web precence of tab is going to stop people from learning songs they want to learn... or somehow deprive the world of the next prodigy. In fact, limiting tab accessibility may promote musicians working harder. Maybe the internet tab sites have instead deprived the world of quality music because aspiring musicians don't have to work as hard. There's less identity at stake when anybody can download the latest song and play it for his/her friends.

Just a suitable counter-argument... the selling of scored music is one of the four primary revenue streams for a musician (directly related to original compositions)...

They are:
Mechanical Royalties (selling copies of studio masters)
Performance Royalties (live or broadcast)
Synchronization Royalties (film and TV)
Print Royalties (scores and tabs)

The second and third (exluding live performance), are dealt with by regulating national bodies (such as ASCAP, SOCAN, etc.). Live covers I believe are covered by these bodies as well (but the cover artist must submit their set lists to ensure the money goes into the right hands, which is fairly uncommon). The first and fourth the companies are trying to protect their investments. I can understand why they would do so.

[perfect circle]

I guess the question that comes to my mind is how many of the people using tab sites would have otherwise bought sheet music if not for the sites. I for one have used these sites over the last year or two, but haven't bought any sheet music in the last 15 years. I see no loss in my case or the case of some 16 year old kid who couldn't buy the music if he wanted to. As far as the quality of the musicians… with these sites i am able to focus more on playing rather than figuring out the music for myself, which has made me a better musician. That may not be the case for everyone, but my time is limited and has been made more productive.

[kiwicolin]

When you go to the tab sites you get someones interpretation of the song. (some of them are way off) If I wanted an accurate rendition I would buy the book. So in that sense the tabs are not "official"

[perfect circle]

…I guess I question the importance of shutting these sites down. Is it really worth the time and effort?

:blush

[Phil_The_Rodent]

Yes, the whole "I wouldn't have bought it anyways" argument... it's used a lot from people who download music as well. If it's not worth anything, then you don't need it. If it is, then you should at least put a couple coins ino the hands of the labourer. I think a repository of PDFed tab that you pay to purchase tabbed music would be just fine. Just a few cents... maybe a buck for a tab sheet. Just so that there is some compensation occurring... and something regulated would surely ensure that the tab you get is accurate and well written.

Even though unofficial sites might not have entirely accurate tab, a composition is thought of, in legal terms, as the chords, melody, and lyrics alone. If they have that, they are in breach of copyright.

I'm surprised to see many folks would endorse protection of copyright in the art world but not the music world.

[Edited on 12/14/2005 by Phil_The_Rodent]

[kiwicolin]

You have some good points there Phil
I would pay $1 for a tab sheet

[perfect circle]

It's not so much a "I wouldn't have bought it anyways" as a "I didn't buy it" and I still wonder what effect it has on the bottom line. A good percentage of the tabs I have seen are only partially correct and often times incomplete… I am getting what I pay for. Like Colin said if I need accurate and complete I'll head to the music store. Pratically speaking I don't think this is an epidemic and it seems petty.

[Phil_The_Rodent]

Here's some sales figures (American sheet music sales):

1994 $5 837 800 000
1995 $6 208 700 000
1996 $6 224 500 000
1997 $6 157 100 000
1998 $6 543 500 000

It would definitely be an revenue stream worth protecting. How much damage does an individual action do? Very little. Even if they would have bought it and didn't. It's the compounded effect that does the damage.

[perfect circle]

Are there any up to date figures? The protection should fit the threat, and that is what I am curious about.

[Phil_The_Rodent]

Not that I have.

I don't think it's anybody's right to determine how someone protects their investments though. It's like saying it's greedy and unfair for someone to buy a house-alarm because they have nothing worth stealing.

[perfect circle]

I'm not claiming that right here Phil… it would be silly to put up fences and have guard dogs to keep the neighbors from smelling your flowers. I mean if they were allowed to smell your flowers they may not plant their own. Maybe FTD should get involved here.

[Phil_The_Rodent]

Sure flowers works. Silly it may be, but entirely in their right to put up a fence if their grass is getting trampled.

Basically, the fact is, you only need to learn a song once. It's not like a CD where you'd listen to the thing many times. You only need to learn it once, and then you don't need the tab again. And I don't think privately sharing licks that you learned amongst friends is necessarily a bad thing (and I don't think that's necessarily what this is about). It's just the sheer magnitude of the thing.

[FX77]

Shutting down these "TAB SITES" is like playing wack a mole, you shut it down, it pop's up somwhere else. If it gets that bad, it will just go further underground like the p2p sites/warez sceens etc.

[perfect circle]

I am curious to know what the magnitude is… lets assume there is no grass, just flowers. No property damage, nothing but pure enjoyment of the flowers. It is possible that one could enjoy smelling the neighbors flowers enough to actually decide to buy their own. Next thing you know they are hooked, buying flowers and planting all over the place. That fence and those dogs may have been enough to keep them from ever realizing pure joy they may have otherwise missed.

[Phil_The_Rodent]

Why are we assuming there is no damage, when if there was no damage this wouldn't be an issue? I don't know under what conditions they claim damage is being done, but it is their posession to do with as they wish.


Keiser said, "but now the Internet is taking more of a bite out of sheet music and printed music sales so we're taking a more proactive stance."

[perfect circle]

If the damage is to the flowers then we should consider it, you were speaking of the grass. When they say "the Internet is taking more of a bite" they don't specify if the Internet includes any legitmate sales. I'm not trying to argue this to the death it just doesn't seem possible that tab and lyric sites could put that big of a wrinkle in their sales (due to their lack of completedness and accuracy).

[Phil_The_Rodent]

Are you talking mechanical album sales or sheet music sales though? Maybe I'm confused as to what your flowers and grass are. Tab sheet sales don't affect mechanical CD sales in any way, I'm fairly certain. But providing free tabs can damage the sale of tabs for sure.

[perfect circle]

I am talking sheet music and lyrics for that matter, those are the issues at hand.

[Phil_The_Rodent]

The organization plans to go after popular sites that some would think are legal, but are not.

[Phil_The_Rodent]

This was posted on another forum I am registered on and I just wanted to post it for those who are interested.

http://www.petitiononline.com/mioti/petition.html

It's an online petition to keep Tab sites.

I would disagree with their belief that "interpretation of copyrighted musical scores does not constitute copyright infringement" but I present it to anyone who wishes to sign it and fight the fight.

Cheers.

[perfect circle]

Seems that a petition will only solidify their decision... I would like to know what the MPA's decision was based on here… a percieved market for them online or otherwise, or an actual drop in sales.

[RickP]

Some very interesting points.

Still, it won't stop me from listening to the tune and figuring it out on my own. In this case I suppose they'll go after me next because I can play by ear and duplicate what I hear.

Granted there is an income, albeit part time, generated by my ability to do this. Does that make me or anyone playing in a cover band thieves along the same lines as those using a file share or Tab share? My argument against it would be there have been thousands of Elvis impersonators for years and as long as they're paying their taxes, the government leaves them alone.

Impersonation is the best form of flatery but I suppose old Lars would go after a Metalica cover band if it could.

I'm ranting now. Sorry.. Haven't posted in awhile. :blush

[Phil_The_Rodent]

American bar owners that host cover bands are supposed to pay ASCAP licencing fees which cover your band. The fines can be quite high if you are caught not paying.

As for your part, the money for royalties is already paid. Providing you submit your setlists to ASCAP, the proper money goes into the hands of the songwriter (or whoever is entitled to this money).

[perfect circle]

"I'm sorry folks we cannot take any requests until we make the proper payments and submissions. Thank you for your patience. And now for our next song…"

[Edited on 29-12-2005 by perfect circle]

[TechZsue]

Tab sites is nothing new. Remember when they shut down Harmony Central a while ago, just for a million other sites to spring up? What's pathetic is that most of the tabs are written out by kids and are lame at best....But lyrics sites??!! Give me a friggin break!




Text Next thing you know they will be set up in bars looking out for cover tunes.


I'm well aware of this one. We stuggle with it in our band. Venues have to be licensed to allow cover bands. If nothing else, it has inspired us to go with more original Tamaterial.

[Edited on 12-30-05 by TechZsue]

[litifeta]

I think what is going to occur out of all this is a whole new counter culture. The web gives folks the chance to snub the commercial television networks and create their own brand of entertainment. The end result may be underground and web promoted bands offering free downloads may become more popular than the mainstream. The issue is the industry has not caught up. They could be making heaps from bands (who could actually play) playing live and selling nifty merchandise.

I hope soon we see a network of our own web radio stations, television etc. I was part of the satire network with my website called The Australian Times.